Transcription

We often think that being hard on ourselves, pushing and criticizing and judging, is a secret sauce to achieving success. I don’t think so. But what if the self-hatred is actually holding you back instead of propelling you forward? Today, we’re diving into a powerful and transformative conversation on why self-criticism and self-hatred don’t get you where you want to go any faster. And I’m thrilled to welcome our expert who has been on our show already in the past. Let’s welcome Colette Jones, a licensed therapist based in New York who specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy with a focus on anxiety, especially among high-achieving women. Colette brings a wealth of insight on how our internal dialogue can either sabotage our success or set us free. Get ready to explore the roots of self-criticism, its impacts on mental health, and how you and I can cultivate a kinder and more effective approach to achieving our goals.

So, welcome to the show, Colette. I’m so excited to have you on our show one more time for the second time.

Thank you, Dimple. I’m so happy to be back.

Great. So I have already done your introduction, and I have said this podcast is going to be for women who suffer with self-criticism and self-hatred. And I know I’m also consciously aware of these thoughts, and sometimes it happens to me, but I’m like, damn, I’m so stupid or damn, I don’t know how to do this or I can, you know, all those crazy negative thoughts. So why do you think self-criticism is so common among high-achieving women? And where does it stem from?

So, I mean, it comes from it, it could come from a lot of places. So firstly, it could come from our parents and how we grew up. And it could also be environmental, you know, the things we see, the people that we’re around, who we go to school with, people we see on the streets. So like social media or the media in general. Because I also do work with a lot of women who were like, they had a wonderful family and they were supportive and they were lovely to me. I don’t know why I’m so critical, like they were never that way, and it doesn’t have to come from that. And, and I think when you ask why overachieving women, I think it kind of goes hand in hand, right? Like the expectation that you have for yourself and having maybe this overly high expectation breeds criticism, you know, when you don’t reach a certain standard that you have for yourself.

You know, just right before our talk today, I had a meeting with my colleague and we were working on social media stuff and I’m like, listen, we need to now start posting twice a day. And she’s like, yeah, oh my God, I’m overwhelmed. I’m like, let’s talk about this. Why are you overwhelmed? And then when I saw the work that she was doing, she spent one hour on one video because she was editing and making it perfect and she’s studying it. And so then I asked her, her name is Lisa. I’m like, Lisa, what were your thoughts when you were making this video? And she’s like, I was saying that it has to be perfect and, you know, we are trying to grow our audience and this and that. I’m like, and how much time did you spend on it? She’s like, one hour. I’m like, girl, we cannot afford to spend one hour on one video. She’s like, but Miss Dimple, I am such a perfectionist. I’m like, yeah, I know, but you cannot criticize yourself, because if you start criticizing yourself—because she was thinking that she’s not doing a good job and she kept on saying all this negative self-talk to me. And I’m like, hm, interesting, like my own team member has this problem. I have this problem sometimes, I catch myself and I have to change it. So that’s a good point.

What about, what are some of the common ways you think women criticize themselves? And how does this self-talk affect their confidence and their ability to reach their goals?

I mean, it could be anything, it could be how we look, it could be how we’re at our job, it could be as a mother, a sister, a girlfriend, a spouse. It could really come in any form. And I think that’s what’s so pervasive about it—it can kind of creep into so many parts of your life, and so many parts of your life. So I think that’s what makes it difficult. But I love what you said when you said you asked her what she was thinking, because that really is the first step: noticing when that inner critic is coming in. Because it’s so easy to not realize, like, the endless number of thoughts that we have going through our heads in a day, how many of them are negative and how many of them are critical. And so when you do sit down and actually take inventory of like, oh, wow, I’m really mean to myself sometimes, and like, I wouldn’t be that way to a friend. Like, you’re not being a good friend to yourself. It helps you then be able to, like, from a different lens, kind of assess if all those things are true, right? Like you said with the video, I spent an hour on it, I’m a perfectionist—did you have to spend an hour? Could it have been different? Could the transitions have been different? Did you have to overthink the copy and what you wrote? Maybe not, and maybe nobody would have noticed but you. But it is kind of being able to notice it’s happening so you can then evaluate, is that true? Does it have to be that way? Does that have to be my expectation?

Oh, so you’re saying like, question yourself, right? Like, question whatever you’re thinking.

I love that because somehow it’s easy for us to do it on others. But it’s sometimes hard for us to do it on ourselves.

Yes. And I think when you say question, I like that, because I think there’s a term in therapy called cognitive challenging, and like challenging the self-talk that you have. And it’s something that’s kind of in my notes when I have to write up notes, it’s like one of the little check boxes of like a certain methodology that you use. And I’ve never liked that word, “challenge,” because it seems like you’re trying to fight something or you’re trying to fight off the thought or fight the thought and pretend that it’s not real or pretend that it’s not there. And I think questioning it is such a great way of putting it because you’re honoring the fact that the thought is there and that it’s okay that it’s there. And you’re just questioning or assessing the validity of it. It’s not fighting it, it’s not pretending it’s not there, it’s not trying to make it go away. It’s just assessing, like, taking inventory and sitting down and thinking about it.

Yeah, okay, cool. Thanks for letting me know that questioning is the right way to do it, which is great. I wanna reflect on this new generation of social media where we are constantly looking at some expert out there and be like, oh my God, you have so many followers, you know? Or okay, including me, because I was never, I was always against social media. This is like 2016. I did not want to be on Facebook, Instagram, no place, because I believed, like, that my yogi brain believed if I’m so good, people will come to me. Like, I’m just gonna meditate and attract people and that didn’t happen. That’s probably back in the days, right? Like, you would have this amazing master and people would go in these yoga schools and just stay with them. But in today’s age, in 2016, I remember someone told me, “Hey, aren’t you on Facebook?” I’m like, “No, I’m not on Facebook.” “You better be on Facebook because how will we find you?” I’m like, “If you want to find me, come into a yoga studio or come into where we work together.” And you know, I did not know that we have to be present online.

So I’m getting to where women these days, it’s 2024 now, we compare our accounts to other people’s accounts. We compare our scars to their edited photos. You know, we just compare, compare, compare. And I’m a victim of “comparison-itis” big time. But lately I’m telling myself, screw this shit. I’m not gonna put any filter on, I’m just gonna go as is. So my question was, when we start— I mean, I was just saying lately I’m telling myself it’s okay. I just, I just, I can just be by myself. But not everyone’s like that. Some of my clients, they want to get out there in social media and they want to put out their work, but then they hesitate because they keep criticizing themselves. So they’re not even doing that action. So maybe my first question is, I’ll break this down for you: Why are we comparing in the first place?

So comparison isn’t innately terrible, right? Like, it helps us learn, you know, what other people are doing. In olden times, you know, when we were scavenging for food and hunting and gathering, we needed to kind of be with the herd, right? We had to be protected by other people. So there is, like, an assessment of it, of what is keeping other people safe, what is helping other people—that is okay. But it’s when I think we’re criticizing ourselves because we’re not that other thing that comparison can be a problem.

Yeah.

You know, when it makes us feel bad about ourselves. Because I always find it’s possible to seek inspiration from other people. So it happens to me. I see other things and I look

at people and I say, “Oh, I don’t have that. I’m not that.” And I have to speak to them, but I’m exactly the same about social media. I didn’t get on it until, like, a year ago maybe. So I’m with you in that whole thing. But no, I think it’s possible to see what other people have. And even if there’s that little voice of like, oof, I don’t, I don’t have that, or I’m not good enough, it can be inspiring, and you can use it as a source of inspiration to kind of be like, wow, that’s something they have, that’s possible for me too. And to learn from those people instead of taking it as a message of, oh, I’m not good enough.

So obviously you’re a therapist, and you probably will catch yourself and you can change the thought and you can think that positive thought. What about this woman who is negatively, constantly telling herself something negative already? Like, imagine a woman who’s feeling depressed, and she wakes up and then she goes on her phone and now she’s already having these depressing thoughts. Now she starts comparing and her first thought will not be, “Oh, I can learn from this person and I can be, and I would love to be this person one day.” But her first thought is, “Oh my God, I’m not good enough, I don’t have this.” How do we even stop that cycle? What advice would you give to that woman who’s feeling bad mood, gloomy, she feels down, she’s feeling sad like day in and day out?

I think it goes back to what I said. I think the first thing is realizing that it’s happening, right? Because, like you said, feeling gloomy day in and day out, you can just get in such a pattern or habit. And again, it could be a diagnosis, right? Like it could be actual formal depression and other things are at play. So the first thing is to realize that it’s happening and assess if maybe you need more support or need help to get to that place because you’re absolutely right, it’s not always super easy to see something and just be inspired by it and be like, this is great, I’m so happy for them, you know? So it can feel like a huge boulder on top of you when you just feel overly critical. But I think it’s also realizing that that doesn’t change anything. You know, like being critical of yourself, it doesn’t make it better, it doesn’t make you work harder, it doesn’t change the situation, right? So you can— that’s okay that that’s happening. You can feel that and process those feelings, but that’s not helping you in the long term.

Exactly. Okay. This is a great point because you’re basically saying it’s okay to criticize yourself, it’s okay to look at someone’s post and not feel like, feel bad about it. But you gotta still process the emotion and say, “Hey, I’m not getting any better.”

Mhm. And then it can come from, like you said in the beginning, it could come from any number of places, right? So sometimes it is kind of just a deeply held, embedded belief based on childhood, based on things you’ve seen, based on your life experiences. So it might just take some, you know, further digging to get down to if that is a core belief of yours that you’re not worthy, or you’re stupid, or you’re not good enough, to just do some further work to figure out where that’s coming from and assess if that has to be true and if it is true now.

Okay, so you’re a therapist friend. Here is my issue, I’m just gonna ask, okay? A lot of women suffer from money issues, okay? And this is like, so many of my friends, all of them. They, you know—right. They make a certain amount of money, but they’re not happy. They’re always, like, worried about money, or they’re like—and I figured, I’m just saying, I’m just going to call this, like, I’m just going to say numbers. I figured women who are making $25,000 a year versus women who are making $500,000 a year are suffering from money issues. And in my head, I don’t understand this because whenever I ask them about why are you feeling this way, like, why— you have a job, you’re paying your bills, you have a car, you have food to eat, you have a nice place to live, you can afford vacations. Why do you still feel that you’re not making enough? So, and then they start criticizing themselves: “I’m not making the money, I wish I can do this.” And then I hear criticism, criticism, criticism, self-hatred, self-hatred. Like I just, I can hear it, but I cannot tell them, I cannot tell them right in that moment because they’re not right to hear. But if a woman has money issues and they have thoughts about self-hatred, constant self-criticism, how do you think it impacts their mental health, and especially anxiety, among women who are striving for success?

So I think it comes from expectations again. And I’ll use myself as an example that, because money is the thing that I have worked on and I have formally gotten help with. When I first went into private practice for myself, the first full year in private practice, I think I made over like 30 grand what I have made working in the nonprofit realm. And so when I hit the end of that year, I was like, I didn’t realize that that’s how much more I’d made. And I was like, wait, why did I still feel in scarcity? Why did I still feel like I didn’t have enough? Why did I feel like I still needed more? And it really was because I had this, like, long-term benchmark that I had set for myself that like, I long-term wanna make this much money, and that is what I want, and that will cover the expenses and my future and all of these things. And so because I hadn’t hit that long-term benchmark, it felt like I failed. I was like, oh, I didn’t hit that thing that I wanted to hit. But all my finances in the moment were taken care of. I was okay. I made more money than I’d made before. But it’s, it’s not being present, right? So it’s not being present in the moment, and always moving, the goalpost always moves, right? Especially if you’re high-achieving and if you’re a perfectionist. You can hit a certain goal and then you don’t feel it right. You don’t appreciate it, you don’t realize like, oh, however many years ago I would have been so proud and so thrilled to have reached that benchmark. But now, because my goalpost has moved, I feel like a failure again. So it’s like you’re always chasing that next thing, and it’s so hard to be—you, it takes time to realize and to be present in the moment and be grateful for all those little things along the way that are so special and that you really would have loved but that you are sitting there present with, because your head is in the future already.

Wow, that’s like amazing, because you just, you just hit the nail right there. And you’re like, we have this crazy expectation, we reach that goal, and then we have some other goal to achieve, and then we keep going forward and forward. And that we are chasing something, we’re not appreciating even reaching that goal in the first place. Similar story, I had exactly the same thing at the end of the year. I’m like, damn, this is all I made. But I’m like, how come I didn’t feel so bad at that time? How come it only feels bad on paper? You know, it only looks horrible on paper. You feel horrible during the entire year.

Mhm. Makes total sense.

So I want to ask you this next question, which is, many women, they fear that being kinder to themselves might make them feel less ambitious because they feel like, “No, I shouldn’t be doing this today, all right, I’ll just take a break today,” and then they feel like they will become less ambitious. How can they balance self-compassion with their drive to achieve without criticizing themselves?

I think that that is something that isn’t true. It is a very common belief that, like, if your parents have this high expectation, if you had a teacher who is really hard on you, that you’ll be scared into doing well and that you’re propelled by fear. And in the short term, maybe you might, like, if you have this thing and you’re scared that you won’t achieve it, maybe you’ll, you’ll reach a goal, but that doesn’t really manifest very long-term. So I think there is still a way to have goals, be grateful for them, and, like, sit and realize when you’ve achieved something and not have to be so hard on yourself. You know, like, you can be happy for yourself every step of the way and you can still allow for disappointment. I think it’s not trying to pretend that those feelings aren’t there. You can still have that big goal, that’s great to have. But I think it fosters feelings of failure and disappointment when you don’t reach it, and then that’s discouraging and then you feel like you want to give up. I think it’s just realizing that mistakes and failure are just a part of the process. Like, we can’t plan our way into everything happening exactly the way we want. And so it does help to realize, okay, this might not work the way that I wanted, I might have to reroute, and that keeps you going longer. But when you set a goal and it doesn’t happen and then you’re discouraged, it can halt your progress, it makes you want to stop because it doesn’t feel worth it.

And it could also be—I mean, I just had this conversation with one of my friends, and she was like, “How come I always set these goals

and I never achieve them, and I keep setting new goals and then I don’t achieve them?” And I was like, maybe it could also be like what we are trained as women. There’s just a new thought, what we are trained as women, you know, like they say all those SMART goals, S-M-A-R-T. Maybe we women are not meant for putting goals on paper and then working our ass off to achieving them. Maybe that’s more like a man thing. Maybe we are more cyclic, or maybe we just have to go with the flow and allow, “Okay, today, what do I feel like doing?” Like, here’s my long-term goal, but what can I achieve in the three-week cycle? Because one week we usually have our menstruation cycle. Okay, what can we achieve in three weeks? Maybe we should break it down to actionable steps. What do you think about that? Any thoughts?

Yeah, I think it, again, comes down to your expectations. Because I just—when you say that, I think if I have a client who is trying so hard to eat well and work out consistently, and lose weight and be healthier, because she has a lot of health issues as well. She was saying just the last week, just last week, “I just want to be consistent, that’s what I need. I need to be able to be consistent.” And I said, “Do you think that you haven’t been consistent?” And she said, “Well, no, I got COVID and then I couldn’t,” and then she’s an accountant, so she had to work those crazy, insane accounting, 18-hour workdays. And so during that, she couldn’t work out so much. Then she switched her line of work a little bit and was getting acclimated, and she couldn’t work out so much. But she told me, she was like, “Well, when I got over COVID, I went back to working out, and I started one day a week and I did that.” And I said, “Well, okay, all those things you couldn’t control, right? Like, you can’t control the unforeseeable circumstances, but you did go back every single time. When you were able to and you were reacclimated, you went back to working out, you did go back to trying to eat better. So is that not being consistent? Because that seems like you did. After every one of those roadblocks, you did get back into it when you were able to. So do you think that wasn’t you being consistent?” And so I think it is just, what is that expectation? You know, like, what is your definition of what success is? Because I think very often the work that we put into things, we can’t always control the outcome, but did we put our effort into it? Did we make those attempts to the best of our ability? And so actually, that’s the difference.

That’s beautiful. We need to focus on the effort that we are putting in versus maybe the numbers, or versus what it’s gonna look like. And you’re right, success is so different for everyone. So I would love to know your advice on practical steps or simple strategies that women can use to shift from a self-critical mindset to a more supportive, empowering circle within themselves. Because sometimes we don’t have the other person to talk to. We have to just be by ourselves, in our own heads, in our own space, and keep talking to ourselves, you know? So what would you tell—any ideas, any steps that you would want to give us and our audience?

Yeah, so I think the first one, like I said, I think the first one is just pay attention to how you’re speaking to yourself. Even if it’s writing it down. I think I’ve done the exercise before of writing down those, like, the inner critic when it comes up for you. Write it down and pay attention to it, and then you will be amazed how many times it comes up, you will. And then I think it’s assessing the validity of it, right? Questioning: is that true? Where is that coming from? When did that start for me? When did I start to believe that? Is that belief coming from me? Is it coming from my environment? Is it coming from my family? Is it coming from my staff? Like, where is that messaging coming from?

So, I have a question on that. Let’s say a person has a belief, and we were talking about money. So let’s say the focus is, okay, for example, a woman is thinking, “I’m making $30,000 a year, I’m not successful.” Let’s say that’s the statement she’s making over and over again. So do you recommend them to sit with that and see why they’re making just $30,000, or what the definition of success is, or how do they question that? Because most people don’t know how to question themselves.

That’s a good, that’s a good question. It depends, I think. For that specifically, I would say it starts with, who told you $30,000 is a failure, right? Does that mean, like, if that means you can’t pay your bills, yes, that might be—that is a problem. But it also doesn’t mean that you have to be mad at yourself that you’re doing that. So I tell my clients all the time, if we set a strategy or a goal or something, and we have a task in between sessions, and you come back to me and you say, “Colette, I didn’t do it, I’m so sorry,” I’m not going to yell at you. I’m not going to—I didn’t put a gun to your head, you know, this was up to you. I come back and I say, “Okay, like, what happened for you throughout the week that it didn’t happen? Was it that you were really busy? Was it that you didn’t have time? Was there some internal resistance, that this thing just didn’t feel good to you?” So I think it is, it’s turning inward. So even if something isn’t great, like you said, “I’m making $30,000 and I can’t pay my bills,” that’s alarming, right? If you can’t pay your bill, it’s okay to feel that, it’s just a matter of, “Okay, why is this not working for me? And how, with taking into account my strengths and what I’m good at and what I’m capable of and within the realm of what is in control of me, how do we work through that?”

Awesome. Okay, that’s great. So pay attention and then question yourself. And if you are boldly saying a statement to yourself over and over again, question, is it even true? Is it even real? Is it alarming for you? Okay, I love that. That was point number two. What’s your third step?

I would say the next thing is to put it against—and this kind of goes within the same step, I guess a part B—is, are you giving yourself the permission to be human, right? Because we are going to make—I think very often those critical things we say are based upon that you’re terrible because you made a mistake or you messed up something, or you’re not good enough to your own standards. So another way I would kind of assess it is like, am I allowing myself to be human? Like, was I expecting that I would do everything flawlessly? Was I expecting complete lack of failure? Or was I expecting that everything would be done perfectly the first time I tried something? So I do think that’s another way to try to go about that, is figuring out, was I leaving room for me to be human?

You know, and we just forget, we totally forget that all of us are humans. We are not machines. Yeah, now we have AI to help us, but we are not machines. And just give us some grace, you know, give yourself some grace, especially when you’re having these negative self-talk episodes. So that’s great. Oh, by the way, any other tips, or can I ask you my next question?

I mean, I think the only thing is, if you find that it’s hard to reframe it on your own, I would say you can go to try to get support, you know, if—because like you said, there are situations where you’re like, oh wow, I didn’t think of it that way, I just feel better because I am not being critical of myself. But if it really is a deeply ingrained belief, it is okay to seek help for it, because that is also nothing to be ashamed of.

And if someone comes into your office, do you recommend them any other alternative modalities or therapy or techniques that this woman can do if you sense that she really hates herself? And all her talk is about complaining about herself, complaining when she didn’t do this, she couldn’t do this. You know, we can sense when someone starts talking how much they really love themselves. Are there any other techniques that you tell them to practice?

I would say writing down what those thoughts are, and I think I kind of already said that. But I would say, like, writing down what those thoughts are. And I think also paying attention to what you need. Like, I think so much of that work is stuck in productivity mode, and like, these are the things I have to do, this is what I need to do. And also looking inward, and I know it seems counterintuitive just like that self-compassion does, but what does your body need? Like, what do you need? What are you wanting for yourself? Is it movement? Is it, I need to take—like, I want an art class, I wanna get that spa appointment, I need to set boundaries for myself. I think it’s kind of just—and again, this can be worked on with a professional as well—what is it that I need? Because so often in that state, you’re kind of in survival mode, you’re not taking care of

yourself, you’re not taking inventory of what it is that you need as a woman, as a person. And so it’s kind of like your body is starving for love, for attention, for that compassion that you haven’t been giving it.

And that actually, that’s a good point—the love, the compassion, which women don’t give themselves enough. And I have this next question, which is specifically for women who are in bad relationships, toxic relationships. Women who are actually, as we are speaking—and if they’re listening to this, whenever you listen to this podcast—if you are in a relationship where your partner is abusing you, I have seen this over and over again with my clients that these women naturally criticize themselves. But those statements are not even theirs; the statements are their partner’s statements that’s just running in, you know, in cycles in their head. For example, one of my clients said, “Oh, my husband tells me I’m not a good cook,” but when I actually ate her food one day—she bought it for me—I’m like, “Dang, you’re such a good cook,” and then she just internalized it and she made it into her own state, right? So what would you tell women who are in these trapped relationships? They can get out, their husbands or partners are vocally, emotionally abusing them, and they’re believing them—like, all those statements are not even theirs.

I think that’s a tough thing because being self-critical is like being in an abusive relationship with yourself, right? So that’s one thing.

Oh my goodness, exactly. That’s it! I think we got the answer. If you are self-criticizing yourself right now, do not complain that you are in an abusive relationship with someone else. You’re basically abusing yourself.

Yeah.

Wow, that is beautiful. But to answer your question, I think that does add another layer, right? When it is coming—and that’s what I said—when you assess where it’s coming from, sometimes it is actively coming from another person. You’re not crazy. You are being told these things, right? So it—and again, it’s not your fault that you’re sitting there believing somebody who you’re incredibly close with. But in that situation, I would say—and I’m sure you’re so familiar with this, Dimple—that the isolation of being in an abusive relationship is such a big part of that, that it is helpful to get support and make sure that you still have people around you. Because very often, that is helpful in your being your way out when you do have those connections and even realizing that it’s abusive or that it’s not healthy. Because very often, you know, somebody could hear that, “You’re a bad cook,” and they just believe it. They don’t realize, especially at first, that that even is abusive or that is harmful or that somebody shouldn’t be treating them that way or saying that to them. So I think having the supports around you to make sure that you’re not isolated is helpful in bringing you out of that.

Yeah, and I would just add to that, like, if someone is calling you names or if someone is telling you something that you deeply don’t believe within yourself and you’re questioning it already, like, put a stop to that instantly. I would vocalize it and be like, “Nope, that’s what you think. I don’t think that way.” So at least I am disconnecting from that energy of the abuse, you know, I’m not allowing it to happen to me.

And it’s similar for yourself too, right? Like you—I often say, you don’t have to believe everything you think, right? It’s similar for that. You don’t have to believe everything that somebody else tells you as well, right? Like, at work, your parent, your significant other. I think we hear what other people say about us and we just kind of take that in and assume that to be true and believe it. So I think that is a very important message, that you don’t have to believe everything people say.

Perfect. So what’s one key message you’d like to leave our women listeners with to inspire them to start breaking free from self-criticism today?

I think that an important thing I say to them is, would you act that way with a friend? You know, would you say that to a friend? Are you being a friend to yourself? Is measuring it by that.

I love that. Are you being kind to yourself? And if the answer is no, then listen to this podcast again and keep listening again and again and again until you understand that it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it for you to keep talking negatively to yourself. And Colette, once again, I really, really appreciate you coming to our show. So thank you so much for being here. Where can our listeners find you?

So, my Instagram is ColetteJones_LCSW, my website is ColetteJonesLCSW.com. You could just Google me, “Colette Jones therapist New York,” and you can kind of find everything that I’m doing over there.

And for our listeners, those of you who don’t know, if you haven’t listened to her before, we did our podcast together—I’m also going to add that podcast link on there. It’s about anxiety for highly functional women. And if you suffer from that, then Colette is the best person to talk to. She focuses a lot on anxiety, and I will add her Instagram on our show notes as well. Thank you, Colette. It was a wonderful conversation with you.

Thank you, Dimple. I will be here anytime.

Also, for all of our listeners, do not forget “Metamorphosis, Not Medication.” I must state for all of our listeners, if you have any questions and you really want the answers for it, then feel free to book a 20-minute free consultation with me. And if you love this episode, then please give us a review on iTunes. Thank you so much, and see you on another episode.